Chinese In North America(北美华人e网)

注册
发新话题 回复该主题

1#

省钱贴延伸: local tax refund with AMT / non-AMT 应不应该报税 - 原理和计算

周末那个省钱贴
https://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2407396&forumpage=1
如果你2017年hit AMT,2018没有hit AMT,去年拿到的local tax refund究竟应该交税吗?
我研究了一下,觉得弄明白了,这个楼先讲个粗略的算法:
step 1: 找到2017年的1040,先找到 taxable income (line 43)
step 2: 对应2017 税率表,找到自己的marginal tax rate (MTR)。
step 3: 找出2017年的AMT (line 45)。
step 4: 计算 AMT / MTR
如果这个数字大于local tax refund,那么local tax refund不需要交税;
如果这个数字小于local tax refund,那么两者差额应该交税。
二楼解释原理
三楼举例说明更细致的算法
更高级的看这里CPA Journal的文章:
https://www.cpajournal.com/2017/10/13/unlocking-benefits-tax-benefit-rule/
最后编辑purplebasil 最后编辑于 2019-04-15 19:43:52
TOP
0
0
2#

解释原理:
我们都知道AMT是不deduct local tax的,也就是说2017年,你交的local tax没有给你带来省税的好处,所以理论上2018你的local tax refund是不需要交税的。

如果你今年继续hit AMT,那么这个refund会在file AMT的时候给你减掉,所以你不用做什么,AMT计算本身已经考虑了这一点。

如果你今年不再hit AMT,那么你需要计算local tax refund对去年税收的影响,以决定refund是不是需要全部交税。如果把refund加到taxable income里面去,你的regular tax会以marginal tax rate 来增加,也就是你的regular tax 会增加 refund * MTR

如果这个数字比AMT要少,说明你的regular tax仍然低于AMT,这个refund对你final tax没有影响,不应该计入今年的income。

如果这个数字比AMT要多,说明你理论上2017不应该交AMT,而应该交这个更高的regular tax,所以超过的部分需要计入今年的income, which is:
     refund - AMT / MTR

换个角度看,顶楼粗略的算法就是看多交的AMT在tax effect等同于多少local tax refund。也就是看regular tax和AMT的break even point在哪里,refund只有超过这个break even point的部分才应该交税。

如果local tax refund改变了marginal tax rate,这个粗略算法会有点误差,三楼后面两个例子有这种情况。
最后编辑purplebasil 最后编辑于 2019-04-15 11:13:57
TOP
0
0
3#

举例说明
这里是几个粗浅的例子,用的是随便找的数字。更高级的看这里CPA Journal的文章:
https://www.cpajournal.com/2017/10/13/unlocking-benefits-tax-benefit-rule/

2017 tax brackets:
https://web.blockadvisors.com/2017-tax-brackets/

Example 1:
2017 taxable income = 180,000
marginal tax rate = 28%
AMT tax = 2,000
local tax refund = 1,000

with the local tax refund, you will still be in the 28% tax bracket, and the refund will increase your regular tax by 1000 * 0.28 = 280, smaller than AMT
so the refund will not change your tax return in 2017. and you do not need to add it to income in 2018.

Example 2:
2017 taxable income = 180,000
marginal tax rate = 28%
AMT tax = 200
local tax refund = 1,000

with the local tax refund, you will still be in the 28% tax bracket, and the refund will increase your regular tax by 1000 * 0.28 = 280, greater than AMT
So the refund will increase your tax return in 2017 by 280 - 200 = 80
given your 28% tax bracket, you need to add part of the refund to your income in 2018, which is 80 / 0.28 = 286

Example 3:
2017 taxable income = 180,000
marginal tax rate = 28%
AMT tax = 7,000
local tax refund = 20,000
with the local tax refund, your total taxable income will be 200,000. This will increase your tax bracket from 28% to 33%.
this 20,000 will be split into two parts:
     11,650 will be taxed at 28% : 11650 * 0.28 = 3265
       8,350 will be taxed at 33%: 8350 * 0.33 = 2755
     total regular tax will increase by 6020 < AMT
so the refund will not change your tax return in 2017. and you do not need to add it to income in 2018.
Example 4:
2017 taxable income = 180,000
marginal tax rate = 28%
AMT tax = 5,000
local tax refund = 20,000
with the local tax refund, your total taxable income will be 200,000. This will increase your tax bracket from 28% to 33%.
this 20,000 will be split into two parts:
     11,650 will be taxed at 28% : 11650 * 0.28 = 3265
       8,350 will be taxed at 33%: 8350 * 0.33 = 2755
     total regular tax will increase by 6020 > AMT
so the refund will increase your tax return by 1020 in 2017 . which is generated purely from the 33% tax bracket.  You need to add 1020 / 0.33  = 3090 to income in 2018.

Example 5:
2017 taxable income = 180,000
marginal tax rate = 28%
AMT tax = 3,000
local tax refund = 20,000
with the local tax refund, your total taxable income will be 200,000. This will increase your tax bracket from 28% to 33%.
this 20,000 will be split into two parts:
     11,650 will be taxed at 28% : 11650 * 0.28 = 3265
       8,350 will be taxed at 33%: 8350 * 0.33 = 2755
     total regular tax will increase by 6020 > AMT
so the refund will increase your tax return by 3020 in 2017, including 265 from the 28% tax bracket and 2755 from the 33% tax bracket.
You need to add 265 / 0.28 + 8350  = 9296 to income in 2018.
最后编辑purplebasil 最后编辑于 2019-04-15 12:52:23
TOP
0
0
4#

有没有人解释下nyc工作住nj的 这种每年ny都会退税 nj都要补税 这种ny refund该不该taxable啊???
ChubbyCat 发表于 4/15/2019 10:41:55 AM 省钱贴延伸: local tax refund with AMT / non-AMT 应不应该报税 - 原理和计算-4楼

Federal level 不关心是哪个州给你退的税还是补的税
TOP
0
0
5#

turbotax 选了recalculate 说taxable
按照楼主这样算法 non taxable。。。咋整
ChubbyCat 发表于 4/15/2019 10:57:02 AM 省钱贴延伸: local tax refund with AMT / non-AMT 应不应该报税 - 原理和计算-5楼


你是不是涨了tax bracket?顶楼是个粗略的算法,只适合refund不改变tax bracket的情况。
TOP
0
0
6#

turbotax 选了recalculate 说taxable
按照楼主算法 non taxable
tax bracket 没有涨
thresh77 发表于 4/15/2019 12:23:44 PM 省钱贴延伸: local tax refund with AMT / non-AMT 应不应该报税 - 原理和计算-6楼省钱贴延伸: local tax refund with AMT / non-AMT 应不应该报税 - 原理和计算-6楼[/url]


那我就不知道了。。。Here is an article on CPA Journal -- 你看看?有些更细致的东西,比如3% AGI limitation 什么的,我也不清楚。可能你家落入那些情况了。tax里面的细节太多了。TurboTax 今年这个recalculate做得应该还可以,我们几个朋友都一recalculate就不用add refund了。

https://www.cpajournal.com/2017/10/13/unlocking-benefits-tax-benefit-rule/
最后编辑purplebasil 最后编辑于 2019-04-15 12:38:07
TOP
0
0
7#

lz没说agi高到一定这个credit会被wash out。。。
媲 发表于 4/15/2019 4:36:05 PM 省钱贴延伸: local tax refund with AMT / non-AMT 应不应该报税 - 原理和计算-7楼省钱贴延伸: local tax refund with AMT / non-AMT 应不应该报税 - 原理和计算-7楼[/url]


太高级的我也不懂哈!我是看见那个贴,好奇心起找了些文章读,觉得自己读懂了,上来分享一下。我自己不是CPA。但是我相信这些规定背后都是有说得通的理由的。
TOP
0
0
8#

如果line 45 是空白,那说明2017年没有交AMT,也就是说交的是regular tax。如果用的是 standard deduction ,那么州税对taxable income没有影响,不需要加到收入里;如果用的是itemized deducttion,那你去年就deduct太多的州税并导致联邦税太低,这个refund需要加到今年的收入里面来交税。顶楼说的是2017 hit AMT的情况。
TOP
0
0
9#

楼上问软件如何操作的同学们:真不好意思,我也是菜鸟,回答不了。我不是CPA,也不给自己报税,没有用过这些软件。我家因为老公报税尤其复杂,每年都是请人报税,一年折腾好几次。我只看报完的税表,按按计算器,看看有没有不make sense的地方。上面都是看到大家讨论,自己做功课rationalize出来的,纯理论探讨。戈壁有TurboTax的具体操作。
https://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2407737&forumpage=2

根据我看的文章,这个nontaxable state tax refund并不是新鲜事,往年也有,但是今年改税以后出现这个情况的人更多。有的软件也是近一两年才加上了recalculate这个功能,还是有些软件没有这个功能,需要手动改taxable state tax refund的数字。
一般说来,如果你的AMT金额很高,或者refund很少,那么你需要加进去的可能性就比较小;如果你长期hit AMT,那么你需要加进去的可能性也较小。如果你在交和不交AMT的边缘,很可能这个refund就能改变你的税额,你需要加一部分或者全部refund。
最后编辑purplebasil 最后编辑于 2019-04-15 23:38:39
TOP
0
0
发新话题 回复该主题